The Media Odyssey

TMO - BBC (audio)
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Evan Shapiro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Media Odyssey Podcast.

Hey you guys.

This is Marion Ranchet.

Marion Ranchet: And this is Evan Shapiro.

Evan Shapiro: And we're coming to you live or near live from

Marion Ranchet: The Lions, the Cannes Lions.

Evan Shapiro: This is your first Cannes Lion, isn't it?

Marion Ranchet: It is. I'm coming here three times a year for the last 20 years but never

Evan Shapiro: For MIPCOM and for other

Marion Ranchet: Exactly, never the Lions.

Evan Shapiro: And what's your first impression? I think there are a lot of people who listen to us, who come to MIPCOM or they may come to another convention here, but they've not been to Cannes Lions, which is advertiser based, marketing based.

Your impressions?

Marion Ranchet: A lot more rose, so much money.

Evan Shapiro: A lot more, yeah, a lot more rose.

Marion Ranchet: A lot more. It's hotter, lot more rose and man, the [00:01:00] activation across the beach is insane.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah, let's talk about that for a second. So when you say activations, I think people think about people handing out flyers or in costumes or something like that.

These are massive stages. Like 50 Cent played on the beach last night. Google Beach is massive. FreeWheel beaches, massive.

Marion Ranchet: The Amazon port.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah.

Marion Ranchet: Is it because it's, you are drinking port or you are near the ports?

Evan Shapiro: No, it's a port. There's a boat.

Marion Ranchet: Yeah, I know.

Evan Shapiro: See, they get it. It's the, this is your home country.

Marion Ranchet: I know.

Evan Shapiro: You should be able to translate. First impressions, what are the, what about the conversations that you're hearing here?

I was at a a party, a celebration for Young Lions Team USA. There's a competition here amongst, first of all, it's a festival, so there's a competition amongst different marketing campaigns and advertisements and ads.

And there's a Young Lions competition so people who are new to the industry compete from different countries. I met the Young Lions US team yesterday, and everybody there at the, it was at the known villa seemed to really be up. They, this [00:02:00] can, seems bigger than last year. They seem to be pretty hopeful, which is interesting 'cause I thought coming outta the upfront anxiety was the watch word. What do you think?

Marion Ranchet: Yeah, I have to say the same. And we came out of another event last week where most of content providers were talking about the ad market being down. So there's a bit of a, yeah. It's not in sync. I'm not completely in sync with what's happening here and what I'm being told by channel owners, content providers.

Having said that, it's interesting to see folks like Disney and Netflix specifically investing here because they're nowhere to be seen at other events. And that says one thing to me, that is that they have something to prove. They have a narrative. They don't need to prove themselves when it comes to content.

So you won't see them at point

Evan Shapiro: They have to prove themselves as ad platforms is what you're saying?

Marion Ranchet: I, yeah, absolutely. So you have that massive Mickey Mouse on the

Evan Shapiro: Mouse House. Yeah.

Marion Ranchet: On the Martinez. You have ice on Netflix with the down under sign. There's none of that at most events that are more different.

Evan Shapiro: Right. They [00:03:00] don't seem to have to prove themselves from a content standpoint, but here they have to prove themselves as new versions of advertising.

Marion Ranchet: Exactly. Exactly.

Evan Shapiro: That's fascinating. I hadn't thought it, 'cause this is their, both of their first major activations here. Disney's not really been present all that much in years past. Not this way. Not as a streaming platform.

And that, that speaks to this kind of weird conundrum that the streaming ecosystem is in, which is the viewership is on streaming more and more. It's not the majority of viewership, especially not here in Europe, but it is more and more viewership, especially amongst young viewers each year, each quarter.

But the advertising hasn't necessarily all caught up there. I did this report with comScore that showed that most of the ads are seen still on broadcast that's on both sides of the Atlantic. Do you think this is the year this will dramatically shift? Do you think we'll see even more money move into CTV and into the premium streamers this year?

Marion Ranchet: I think there's always that lag, right? So the audience goes faster to new mediums than we as an industry do. Yeah. I've read somewhere that this year we're looking at [00:04:00] CTV playing catch up. I think it's gonna take more time. And I think what this event shows is the amount of education that still needs to be done to convince advertisers as to, and brands, as to where they should put their money.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. And speaking of education, I've been on this crusade to convince big publishers to lean into the creator economy. Last week at Stream TV I gave this presentation called It's All the Creator Economy Now which was about this dual ecosystem world with consumers Gen X and older watching one ecosystem and consuming in one ecosystem of millennials and younger consuming media in a separate ecosystem of their own.

And that in order to capture both creators had to live in both worlds. But also big brands, big studios have to traverse both worlds as well. And did you read the report that I did the landscape analysis on YouTube?

Marion Ranchet: I did.

Evan Shapiro: Thank you very much.

Marion Ranchet: So I can actually quote one of the data point that was the most shocking.

Evan Shapiro: Oh my goodness. I'm gonna blush [00:05:00].

Marion Ranchet: So I am reading you because

Evan Shapiro: Everybody here can also read on Media War and Peace. It's my Substack newsletter.

Marion Ranchet: Once I did not read you and we recorded a pod and you quiz me on something and I hadn't read you, so now I'm reading you every time.

Evan Shapiro: Imagine living with me. It's not easy.

Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Are you reading me?

Evan Shapiro: I am reading that.

Marion Ranchet: Okay. Streaming Made Easy on Substack.

Evan Shapiro: Streaming Made Easy is her suspect.

Marion Ranchet: If you wanna have more than the US perspective on things, this is where to go

Evan Shapiro: Who needs more than the US perspective?

Marion Ranchet: Everyone. Everyone. We need it.

Evan Shapiro: I agree.

Marion Ranchet: No, but so what I noticed was you were looking at data, so I wasn't surprised to see that you had that essentially 10% of the channels were making 90%. I had that 80 20 rule

Evan Shapiro: yeah. So it's 10% get 94%.

Marion Ranchet: Yeah, exactly. What was surprising was to see that the top 50 was very much mostly creators. Still. And we're 20 years into the journey with the YouTube.

Evan Shapiro: That's right.

YouTube is celebrating its 20th anniversary or 20th birthday. And actually I'll be interviewing Neil Mohan, the CEO tomorrow, but still to this day, it's very [00:06:00] creator dominated. Despite the fact that it's moving to the living room most viewing, at least in the US and I would say about half in England, YouTube viewing is on the television and creators are now dominating with long form on TV.

More and more creators are leaning into the long form content and leaning into the TV of it all and it seems like big brands and studios are lagging behind that. But,

Marion Ranchet: Another rule.

Evan Shapiro: There are exceptions. We're here today with BBC studios. They're gonna let us break some news about what they're up to.

But most importantly, I think what BBC studios has exemplified over the last couple years, in particular with Bluey and BBC Earth and a bunch of other projects is how to act like a creator if you're a studio. And I'm turning to the audience for those of us on the audio Pod and on this camera here how to leap in and out of television and onto YouTube and onto TikTok and other areas, and serve as both a big brand, a steward of large IP and a [00:07:00] creator at the same time.

So I think that segues nicely to our first guest. Do you wanna bring her in?

Marion Ranchet: Yeah, for sure. So we're gonna welcome Jasmine Dawson. She's SVP Digital at BBC Studios.

You have some fans out there. Good for you. Good for you.

Evan Shapiro: And this is your apartment, so thanks for having me.

Jasmine Dawson: You're welcome.

Marion Ranchet: Shh. You're not supposed to say that.

Jasmine, super nice having you over so you've heard our intro and we're always super keen to talk to companies who are bridging that gap between big media. So that's. That's us. That's you guys. That's BBC studios and the creator the creator economy.

Do you wanna tell us a bit more about, how you are actually showcasing that day in, day out with one of the biggest property out there?

Jasmine Dawson: I think you are referring to Bluey.

Marion Ranchet: Absolutely.

Jasmine Dawson: You are. So BBC studios has an incredible legacy in storytelling. And we're so lucky to have a fantastic portfolio.

Bluey obviously is leading the [00:08:00] charge. She's been an absolute rocket ship over the last few years. I've seen her through since she first came onto screen. And it was a massive opportunity for us to think about what our audience cares about and we really started to shift not only how we were working, but how we were structured and what we cared about as well.

So there were four key things that we really tried to not only work on with Bluey, but our fantastic portfolio from BBC Earth to Top Gear, to Dr. Who. And it's a real shift for us for thinking like a broadcaster to moving to a creator, which obviously you guys have been talking a lot about.

Marion Ranchet: So tell us about those four pillars.

Jasmine Dawson: So fandom is what we folks think of as our business. Fandom, as the strategic engine and not the end goal. Because I think you talk about this a lot about the flywheel. If you're obsessing about that fandom and you use that as a strategic engine to not only think about where you can take your YouTube strategy or TikTok strategy, but also to have that impact on everything else and[00:09:00] feel that more is more and seeing hopefully that impact not only on your revenues, on social, but also see the uptick in things like consumer products and licensing.

The next thing would be thinking like a creator, and I think that's how you make content and who you make content with. So the how you make content.

We moved from clips compilations and thinking about how we cut up our amazing content for different platforms. Always thinking about the audience. But strategically thinking, how do we create content ourselves? How do we make original content that is just for this screen or this platform?

And then, who you make it with. So we've got incredible value with our audiences. Our fans love us but that relevance is always going to be important for us. And sharing that relevance value with somebody else and leaning into the creator economy and working with creators of all different areas where it's in factual, whether it's in kids and family or in scripted, has been [00:10:00] incredible for us.

I think KPIs, which I know you talk about a lot, is also a really

Marion Ranchet: I love data.

Jasmine Dawson: Love, same absolute data geek. And I think moving away from views, which we do incredibly well with. 14 billion views last year, but views are quite a vanity metric at this point. We, there is how do you measure a view, what's the view, the same and moving more to that depth of engagement and thinking about watch time.

And also how is our audience engaging with us? How do we actually measure that fandom? Because just because you view a piece of content doesn't make you a fan.

Evan Shapiro: So specializing in that fandom, you're and you've created, measuring fandom sounds esoteric and undefinable, but you've put hard metrics around this and this has enabled you to get to 10 million subscribers and billions of views on Bluey.

But more importantly, it's a massive worldwide brand. It's one of the biggest hits on television and one of the biggest hits on YouTube too, simultaneously, which is super unusual and proof that you can do both of these things at the same time.

This [00:11:00] brings you to kind of, well not kind of, some exclusive breaking news that you're bringing to us today, which is, you are bringing on a brand new kids show, but from outside BBC studios.

Jasmine Dawson: Yeah, we're lucky enough to have an incredible stable. With Bluey and Hey Dougie and others. But we have really, we think that we have cracked the nut in kids and family. We know that our KPIs are absolutely head and shoulders above our competitors. And therefore we started to look at where else can we look to expand our stable.

So yes, we've got some amazing news coming out that we are going to be repping Akima which is our first

Evan Shapiro: Oh, the full slate.

Jasmine Dawson: Yes. Well, just focusing on Bing. So the whole slate of Bing. But the reason I say the whole slate is because Bing has like us a huge network of channels just for Bing.

There are more languages than us and they've got a huge network just dedicated to that single IP.

Evan Shapiro: So that's your first time that you're repping a piece of outside intellectual property, right?

Jasmine Dawson: Yes.

Evan Shapiro: And this is a big deal. This is a big hit on your own [00:12:00] broadcast networks or your own stations. But they've given you stewardship of this brand worldwide on digital, correct?

Jasmine Dawson: Absolutely. And I think it's about finding the right values for us. We take pride in the fact that our kids and family portfolio, it has heart. The inform, educate, and entertain is obviously the key pillars of the BBC.

But we really take that to heart in kids and family. We have a responsibility there and making sure that we are thinking about how we do move to thinking about third party. And it's a repping more and we've definitely got more plans on that. We had to find the right IP. With the right values and also the right team.

They're an incredible team. We've already had so many sessions where it just feels like it's a one team and one partnership.

Evan Shapiro: That's great. That's awesome.

Marion Ranchet: I love it.

Evan Shapiro: So let's dig into the data. You said that you changed the metrics. And I'm fascinated by, how we measure success, right?

So your view times are up 56% or your total viewership is up 56% year on year. And what other metrics do you lean into? What other KPIs? [00:13:00] So watch time, engagement, what are you measuring in as far as engagement goes?

Jasmine Dawson: So engagement in a few different things. Thinking about engagement as shares and positive sentiment as well as UGC.

Evan Shapiro: Oh yeah. This is something that you were talking about before you really lean into the single individual creator using your IP to expand your breadth.

Jasmine Dawson: A hundred percent.

Evan Shapiro: So talk about that. 'cause that's a bravery that not a lot of brand owners have, is to let the hive take over your brand for a period of time.

Jasmine Dawson: Yeah. And letting the hive take over your brand, you have to do it with cautious curiosity and making sure that you are really thinking about, what are you precious about with your brand? Obviously it can go wrong, but we have ways to protect that. But it can go so right. And for us being able to extend our brand story through our audience and creators, it makes it more powerful.

And also then you are talking in a language that's more meaningful to the audience. And for us, measuring that UGC and measuring how our brand's taking [00:14:00] flight is a really important metric for fandom.

Marion Ranchet: Yeah I guess the UGC portion is, 'cause most of what you do, it's at, it's in a way it's top down right to that audience.

If you empower the audience, that's how you truly build that community. And actually we've seen data from the cultural trend report from YouTube that says that people are actually sometimes more interested in watching shoulder content around the IP than the IP itself. Which

Evan Shapiro: That's right.

Marion Ranchet: should act as a warning. That, and the Oscars is a great example. We were with YouTube Spain a couple of weeks, and the coverage of the Oscars in Spain was more watched than the Oscars themselves.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. And that gets to when you took over or when you started to blow up the Bluey channel you focused on the original content itself, but since then you've really ventured into bespoke originals.

You mentioned this, but they've been so successful. Talk about the success of your bespoke YouTube originals 'cause they've gone beyond YouTube.

Jasmine Dawson: Yeah, they've definitely gone beyond YouTube into our partners with Disney Plus with the ABC [00:15:00] in Australia. And with CBBs. And we took a risk. We, before the streaming numbers hit, we took some big gambles.

We wanted to do original content, and that's because we were obsessed with our audience. We knew that what they were asking of us, and we knew that they were obsessed with us. So to that point of those indicators, we knew what they were asking for, and therefore we created original content that really fed the beast.

So we created an amazing partnership with Penguin Random House called Bluey Book reads with some incredible talent like Kylie and Danny Minogue and Eva Mendez. As well as thinking about what is it that connects our multi-generational audience on Bluey.

Bluey started off as preschool, but it's definitely moved into a space where it connects with all audiences of all ages.

That's tough when you are commissioning and thinking about the content that is going to connect those audiences, you have to think about what brings people together. So we created some minisodes that we felt tapped into humor and heart. They were between so [00:16:00] two and five minutes.

Evan Shapiro: Okay.

Jasmine Dawson: But they were so good that we thought these need to go more places. I think when you're creating more content, you have to think about that sort of, everything is everywhere, but how do you do it strategically? And so the windowing strategy with our partners was incredibly important.

But they are so happy with their content that they're taking more. So that's incredible for us. It really, that flywheel starts to really get into motion. And therefore we have already commissioned seven new digital series for this year and have much more planned just for Bluey.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. And so it seems like you, I talked to, we talked to a lot of people Joe Redfern and her podcast about how

Marion Ranchet: Yeah, Jasmine was on.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. So how tough the kids programming business is from an advertising standpoint, especially in Europe. But just in general, it's been really tough. And yet you seem to be defying the gravity of that ecosystem the ways others aren't. First with Bluey, and now with Bing.

Why, how?

Jasmine Dawson: I think it is thinking about [00:17:00] how you story tell. YouTube has no dearth of kids content.

Evan Shapiro: It's the biggest channel kids channel in the world.

Jasmine Dawson: Yeah, exactly. And some publishers can absolutely churn it out. But that's not really thinking about the audience. They're just trying to play the algorithm. So it's more and more, but it's not thinking about the audience at the heart of it. It's not thinking about quality storytelling.

So I think it's about really reflecting the ethos of our programming, Bing and Bluey are absolutely magical in their storytelling and really capture the audience's imagination no matter what age you are.

But I think then thinking about that multi-generational audience. We have really thought about how we move away from the CPMs. 'cause the reason why they struggle is because the CPMs in kids and family is so low. That is the problem, right? You can't get to profit because you're constantly trying to chase.

So we consciously said, how do we move the needle? How do we think about not only the content that we're making, but the partners that we're working with, the creators that we're working with to move up [00:18:00] and away from just preschool?

So that combined with how we built out our Bluey network. So thinking about yes, Bluey as a mainstream channel is absolutely going to try and talk to our preschool audience and we'll stretch into sort of parents carers.

But how can we tap into that fandom? So we've got a dedicated channel for Bingo, Bluey's little sister. We've got Blueys bestest friends. We've got 16 different languages. We are growing that network and that is ultimately helping us power our CPMs. And then the critical part is, us selling our own content.

So whilst we have worked with YouTube for 15 years now, and they have been selling our content for that amount of time we made a conscious decision a couple of years ago to bring in a dedicated social sales team, and therefore that was really

Evan Shapiro: In-house at BBC?

Jasmine Dawson: In-house, and building, building a team that understand social, through and through, understand how to sell content and sell fandom, not just audiences and reach, [00:19:00] is incredibly important.

Marion Ranchet: Which YouTube seems fine with.

Evan Shapiro: Not only, they prefer it. And that's what I think people don't understand about the Partners program. So first, let's double click on one thing.

One, you changed all your KPIs to fandom versus reach. And while, and you didn't put money at the, it wasn't about chasing CPMs. It wasn't about chasing impressions. It was about building the largest engaged audience you possibly could.

Jasmine Dawson: Yeah.

Evan Shapiro: Then you pivoted to monetizing it, which means more than just ads.

It means the whole flywheel: merchandise live, the whole mishpocha, as my grandmother would say, it's Yiddish for Mishpocha. But then lastly, you did lean into selling your own inventory in the partners program, but you did so by hiring a bunch of digital natives and bringing them in house and really attacking it as a packaged product not as a single YouTube channel. Is that an accurate thing?

Jasmine Dawson: That is much better put than I do.

Evan Shapiro: Then why do we need you?

Jasmine Dawson: Exactly. I could have just been

Evan Shapiro: No, but how has selling the partners program [00:20:00] been for you? Because you're right. YouTube would rather you sell it 'cause you're gonna get a higher CPM.

How has it been working for you? 'cause, if I read your metrics correctly, you're up 110% year on year in revenue sales.

Jasmine Dawson: So we started with a seven figure business and it was going incredibly well with YouTube. We had a great relationship with our, the partner sales team there. And they, they got our IP, they understood the magic of so BBC storytelling.

But it was a massive shift bringing in the sales team in house. As you said, going from a seven figure business, we grew 110% year on year. And we are still predicting to be up year on year this year, which is incredible.

You were talking about the ad market earlier on, and I think in certain pockets, yeah, there is definitely, there's pressure but we are incredibly optimistic as I think most social focus publishers are.

So that for us was a big moment. It's so important of who you hire and about how you sell your fandom.

Evan Shapiro: And you talked earlier about, so that's your sales team, that's who you're working with there. But who you [00:21:00] choose to work with has been a big shift for you as well, including this talent works program.

So you're now not just working with big studios, you're working with creators individually to create content. Shoulder programming around your original content from the tele, but also original digital series and things like that as well, right?

Jasmine Dawson: Absolutely. So our incredible department Talent Works, has an amazing roster of relationships with creators of every scale in terms of their fandoms.

For us, developing those relationships, either early on or professionally stalking them and seeing them rise. And who I think we're obviously gonna have some special.

Evan Shapiro: But you're also taking talent from your proper telly shows and bringing them into talent works as well.

Jasmine Dawson: Yeah, exactly. And I think sort of talent can come from anywhere just like a good story can.

And therefore thinking about who is the fantastic sort of talent that's cutting through in broadcast. And how they can then tell stories on a different platform. That's what Talent Works do so well, and realizing that creator story and how they [00:22:00] talk to our audience is really important.

Evan Shapiro: So that, that's a great segue to our next guest. Welcome Kiell Smith-Bynoe.

You're in a big hit show, Ghosts, in the UK, but this is your first Cannes Lions. Yeah?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yes it is. Yeah.

Evan Shapiro: Why are you here?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: I did GCSE French and I just wanted to practice. I haven't used it in ages. Yeah, I'm here, I'm doing a talk at the the UK advertising dinner.

Evan Shapiro: Cool.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: On improv mainly.

Evan Shapiro: Oh, nice.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah, but I'm not allowed to improvise it, so I had to write that and

Evan Shapiro: Seems ironic.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main thing, but also

Evan Shapiro: But this is your first Cannes Lions. What are your, what do you think? What do you think, what did you think it would be beforehand? And what do you think it is now?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: I didn't really have an idea of what it would be. I definitely didn't think it would be this. I, like when I was walking along,

Evan Shapiro: It's a little crazy, right?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah. I was walking along the beach yesterday and seeing like all the, I was about to say tents. Like it's a festival, I guess it is a festival.

Evan Shapiro: It is a festival.

Marion Ranchet: It is a festival.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: [00:23:00] It's, what is it?

Evan Shapiro: It's a festival of ideas. It's a competition in the palais of advertising campaigns. Yeah. So they do give prizes out, but then it's a competition between all of the brands. And all of the platforms, actually. All of the platforms to attract the prettiest brands to their party. That's what it's about.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: I've picked my winner.

Evan Shapiro: Who's that?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: From the party last night. No, I went to the Snap, I went to the Snapchat party, but that, yeah, that's the only one I've been to so far. So they're winning. So everyone else has got,

Evan Shapiro: Snapchat party was pretty good. Was that 50 cent?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: It was, yeah.

Evan Shapiro: How was that?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah he didn't remember me.

Evan Shapiro: So strange.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah, it was really annoying actually. I went to his concert like four years ago. But it was fun. It was great. Had a good time and yeah, it's nice to like, see people and network and chat and

Evan Shapiro: Let's not pretend you weren't here for the Jasmine conversation and continue it.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yes. And thank you for letting me in your house.

Evan Shapiro: She was she talk about Talent Works and you're, I think one of the first things you did as a professional in the trade was to work on a digital project with BBC studios. How was that?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah. [00:24:00] Great. So that was, this was a long time ago I did some BBC digital work and then I feel that has led onto bigger things and eventually a show like Ghosts, which is like a global hit.

Evan Shapiro: Monster hit.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah. Yeah, but also still doing smaller projects like The Train, which was a BBC Studios project. And what that we shot like a series on a train.

And there was a Death Valley, which I, which I did recently, more recently, which was like last year and it came out just a few weeks ago. And that's also been a massive hit. And like really good viewing figures and things like that.

Marion Ranchet: So from day one, you've been in both worlds, right?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Marion Ranchet: As an industry, we're trying to be more like creators. You've been in both TV and digital. You've been in both worlds from the get go.

What have you learned, did that help you better understand the two worlds, that bridge?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah, definitely. I think like when I came outta drama school was 2010 and I didn't really know how to get straight onto, I never thought I was gonna be [00:25:00] on TV to begin with. I thought I was gonna be doing like serious plays. And

Evan Shapiro: Is there money in them?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: No, not at all. But is there money in TV? But the, when I came outta drama school, I was like, I had, I didn't have aspirations of being on television. I just thought to be realistic and coming out of the biggest year in my drama school I've ever had, which was like 53, which is, and it's usually 30 or less.

And I thought, we've been doing plays and that's what I'll be doing. And then I wanted to create, I wanted to have a showreel because at that time you weren't leaving drama school with a showreel. So a few friends of mine were doing things on YouTube, doing sketches and skits, and so I'd get involved with those and then that became my show real.

So then I was putting those together and putting that out. So coming from like a creative, creator background where you're putting your own stuff together or going, that's gonna be the best part for my show real. And then realizing that is useful to have as people in TV are watching that and going, oh, okay, this guy can do that, and that, and that.

And also put this thing together as a package. So all of [00:26:00] that helped. And then I was also auditioning and doing it that way. So I've taken two roots of the same.

Evan Shapiro: And things have really changed since you graduated in 2010. Now, if a young artist was coming up, a young performer was graduating. It feels like doing the creator stuff is how you build your real now. That's the best way to do it.

And to your point, being able to produce and package a project, even if it's a YouTube short or whatever. It shows your kind of breadth of professionalism in the market in a way that just being on a show can't.

Would you advise young performers to lean into that?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah. That's always my advice whenever I'm asked. If I can give one piece of advice, it's always to just create, make your own stuff. We've all got most of us have got a phone with a camera that we can create a thing.

Evan Shapiro: All us do, let's be honest.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah. My mom struggles with it, but we can all like, create something and put something out. So we have the ability to do that. And even if it's not good, you've got some, you've got back catalog. Yeah.

Evan Shapiro: Kool Story Bro is your improv comedy troupe?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah.

Evan Shapiro: Is, and you just sold out a bunch of [00:27:00] shows in London.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah, we just did a UK tour.

Evan Shapiro: Is that, so it's a bit of a side hustle to a certain extent 'cause you're a big TV star, but do you see that as the digital project that you're gonna develop next? Or do you see that as some turning into something beyond stage.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: It definitely could. Yeah. And I've noticed that there are, improv is getting bigger and it's more popular.

And it used to be a sort of like, I did an article recently and it was described as the ugly stepsister of comedy, and I think that's because,

Evan Shapiro: That's right.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah. I think it's true. That's like people, a lot of people.

Evan Shapiro: It's hard to do well.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Exactly. Yeah. And a lot of people know about bad improv. They either know about bad improv or Whose Line Is It Anyway.

Evan Shapiro: Right, exactly.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: And there's, people don't realize that there's an in between.

Evan Shapiro: Can you capture improv on, Whose Line did it well because they had all these guidelines, but can you capture good, can you capture improv on camera?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yes. Yeah. I think that's how I'm, that's how I'm selling the shows. We're filming each show, we're putting clips out and putting those online and on social media, and that's what's bringing in an audience. So I think it is possible.

Of course, it's better to [00:28:00] be in the room and have full context and not just get a one minute clip from a five minute thing, but it's, it is possible, and I think we're doing an alright job of it.

Marion Ranchet: It's exciting. Can you send some show dates? I wanna go. Next time we're in London.

Would love to go. You're in Soho, right?

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah, yeah.

Evan Shapiro: So come to the US, play there as well.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah, I'd love to.

Evan Shapiro: Then we can get you on the US Ghosts.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah. And I can make some real money. Yeah. Okay.

Evan Shapiro: Thanks so much for being with us.

Let's welcome our special guest, Amelia D- Sorry. Now I fucked it up.

Marion Ranchet: Yeah,

Evan Shapiro: It's not an easy name to pronounce.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: It's phonetic. It's quite easy to pronounce. It's a lot of let's,

Evan Shapiro: Welcome our next special guest from the hit show Chicken Shop Date Amelia Dimoldenberg.

Marion Ranchet: I love it. I watched you last night for two hours just to get in mood.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: No way. That must have been like a hundred episodes. Two hours?

Marion Ranchet: Yeah. 102. I was [00:29:00] worried though. I was a bit scared of you.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Really?

Marion Ranchet: Yeah.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Oh, okay.

Marion Ranchet: You can be intimidating.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: How about now? How'd you, how do you feel now? Am I intimidating now?

Marion Ranchet: No, very nice. But yeah, I was a bit, I was a bit, I was a bit scared of you yesterday, but, super interested to understand a bit more about how you came up with that concept, you know what your creative process looks like and yeah. Also how you have that thing you have, I'm saying scared of you.

No, but you have that thing. You are unlike most people who are interviewing big stars. There's that personal touch. So how did you come up with that?

Amelia Dimoldenberg: I've actually had the channel for 11 years and the, yeah, so it's been a long journey and before it was Chicken Shop Date as a YouTube series, it was a column in a youth -un magazine.

When I was 16, I started going to a youth club in Northwest London near where I'm from and we made a magazine and everyone there was really into UK rap and Grime, and I was into Katie Perry and McFly. And so I really wanted to interview all of the artists that everyone was listening to and thought a great way to do that would be a date.

[00:30:00] And I'd also never been on a date before, so killing two birds with one stone.

Marion Ranchet: Why chicken though?

Amelia Dimoldenberg: And then someone said, when we were discussing the idea, someone said, oh, you should go on a date where you would never usually go on a date to make it funny. And that's how the chicken shop element happened.

And yeah, so I would write up the interviews and have a friend take photos. It would get published in the magazine. Then at my first year of university thought it'd be great if these were actually filmed because that was a fun dynamic. I was like playing up to the persona, which a persona that I'd was an exaggeration of the deadpan, sarcastic teenager that I was.

And, yeah. And then that was 11 years ago, the first episode with the rapper Ghetts, and I actually interviewed him last year again, the first ever second date to celebrate the 10 year anniversary of the show. So yeah, so that's the journey and it's just been yeah, it's been the evolution of Chicken Shop Date, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm quite glad it's been a decade.

Marion Ranchet: What else have you been doing? You are building a company. How are you pushing for [00:31:00] other project shows? I think you've, did you've done another dating program with Converse the brand?

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Oh, I did, yeah, I did an advert for them. We did, they came up with the idea of having a dating show where people are, where the guys and the girls are, you are judged by their shoes.

Evan Shapiro: So you can only see their shoes?

Amelia Dimoldenberg: You can only see their shoes. Yeah. They're looking for a soulmate, you know? So yeah. And that was

Evan Shapiro: Is that yours or theirs?

Amelia Dimoldenberg: It was theirs. It was a short content series for Converse, but that, yeah, so that's the work that I do a lot of work with advertisers actually, and branded content as myself.

I stay away from advertising on Chicken Shop Date specifically because I just want that to be a completely my creative vision and not have to deal with clients in that space. So I say no to I, yeah. I don't really work with advertisers there, and I get a lot of offers and it's just been a, it's been a decision that I've made so that I can keep it as pure as

Jasmine Dawson: I love that

Amelia Dimoldenberg: as possible.

Yeah. But I work, I love working with brands separately to that. And I think that it's brands given amazing opportunity for you to make your idea come to [00:32:00] life in a world in a, in a climate where it's very hard to get commissioned. The reason why, one of the reasons, the reason why I do have chicken shop date on YouTube is because I pitched it to broadcasters and they said no.

And so I just thought, okay, I'm just gonna make it myself. And that's what I did, and I've had offers along the way to sell the IP and to make it for broadcasters. And I'm so happy that I've always said no because I think owning the IP is one of the most amazing things that I have. And so many other creators that I know actually don't, interestingly, don't actually own the IP to their shows. And that's something that I'm really grateful for and I feel is a very powerful thing.

But yeah. In terms of developing other projects, I'm actually developing something with BBC Studios I've always been very interested in storytelling. I feel Chicken Shop Date to me is my version of a romcom.

And the story is, will I meet the love of my life? And fingers crossed one day. But I love creating the story with each episode. I never know [00:33:00] what the dynamic is between me and the guest. And I do a lot of prep beforehand to figure out what the vibe's gonna be. And then in the edit, we are meticulous.

I sit across the every single edit directing the episodes, and we film for about just under an hour and we make it into eight minutes and under. So there's a lot of shaping that goes into creating the storyline of the episode, moving things around and creating the punchlines, et cetera.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah, I think there's this tendency in traditional media to treat YouTube and creator dom as, I don't know, less than, or not professional, but shows like yours and Hot Ones have redefined the genre of talk.

And, the the meticulous way you write and produce that show, it's very clear how the craft that goes into it.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Yeah.

Evan Shapiro: So I think it's really smart for you to keep the brands out and then grow your brand by working with them outside. But the, how does that create a business for you?

You just started a company or you've started it recently, Dimz right?

Amelia Dimoldenberg: [00:34:00] Dimz Inc. Yes. I guess that's my production company, creative studio. I think when you are creating content, when you are whatever that is by def, by whatever that may be, and whatever platform is, by definition, you are acting as a production company because you're producing the content yourself.

And so for me, it was really important to name myself as a production company with Dimz Inc because I felt the need to legitimize what we were doing. And I think that once you say, okay I have a production company and we make my shows under this production company, people are like, oh okay.

Even though we were just honestly just doing what every other creator's doing always just by hiring freelance people all of the different things that production companies do and having my own employees, et cetera.

So yeah, it was just really to legitimize the work that we were doing and for people in the traditional media landscapes to understand in their terms, that we are doing the same thing, but with our own agenda. And yeah.

Marion Ranchet: I think that's a great thing about the bias that our industry has towards creator media. The fact that you need to legitimize what you're doing when [00:35:00] you've been doing this for 10 years. You've so successful. How many subs do you have?

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Three and a half million?

Marion Ranchet: Yeah.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. Let me ask you that. 'cause it, I do feel like the rules of the creator world have really shifted.

So you've got 3 million subs on YouTube. About what? 2 million on TikTok?

Amelia Dimoldenberg: 4 million.

Evan Shapiro: 4 million. I apologize. Did you a disservice. But you're not a hundred million, you're not at the size of a Mr. Beast or something along those lines. And yet you are, you feel like a cultural phenomenon. You were at the Oscars, you are everywhere.

How do you, how do the rules of creator to work now that you take a passionate cult, like 3 million followers on YouTube, and turn it into really a Zeitgeist brand and it's what I think it's becoming a lifestyle brand.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: I think that, thank you. I think the show transcends the followers in a sense. So I think maybe that's how things have shifted. That follow account, I would say is not as important as maybe it was before, especially now, if you see how the algorithms have changed, like the algorithms are so potent now.

You don't, the things that come up on your

Evan Shapiro: Subscriber number is not [00:36:00] really.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Yeah. The things that come up on your feed, you're not a follower to those, that type of content. And I think that just naturally the type of videos that I've been making with Chicken Shop Date, they really work with the algorithm because the way that we edit the videos, we do the B roll, which is like the shots of the chips and like the boss man and those kinds of things.

So we have, our episodes have always been in clips, so it's really easy to promote the show because we just

Evan Shapiro: It works really well on TikTok, works really well.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Yeah, we put the clips out, but the clips is the show. Although I would say that the episodes of, or I always want them to be watched in full on YouTube. That's how they're intended to be watched.

But yeah, so I think that our show really works with the algorithm and we are really good at being in tune with the zeitgeist. And we have talent meetings every week where we go over the inbound requests and the outbound requests for talent. We are really particular with who we have on the show. We are not just gonna have someone on the show if they're really famous. That's just not a reason to have someone on.

Evan Shapiro: But they also don't have to be single.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: They don't have to be single. No. I'm very much into the married people too.

Yeah, they don't have to be single.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: How do you go on [00:37:00] the show? Just asking for a friend.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: You have to fill in a really long form.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Okay, sure.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Yeah. Which I'll send you.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah, please. For my friend.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: For your friend yeah.

Jasmine Dawson: Not me. You were pointing at me, but not me.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Not you,

Jasmine Dawson: But I'm happy to. I'm good at filling out forms.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Yeah, I think we're really good at picking yeah, choosing talent to have on the show that's, yeah, a mixture of people.

Evan Shapiro: Do you do a chemistry test? Because it does feel like, especially like the Ben Stiller and some of other

Marion Ranchet: Ben Stiller was weird. Sorry, Ben Stiller.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Ben Stiller. Yeah. I was such a fan of Ben Stiller and I think I grew up watching his movies and I was.

Evan Shapiro: You gave him such shit.

Marion Ranchet: Oh, whoa. Yeah.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: When there's people like Ben Stiller, it's funny 'cause when I'm there I read someone's energy, right? And soon as I read their energy, I know if they can take it or not. And I think with him I was like, I can go there because I think that it will be fine.

Evan Shapiro: It's his, that's his character.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Whereas with other people where they're more, maybe have a sweetness to them. I wouldn't.

Evan Shapiro: You don't wanna crush them.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: I don't. I'm not going to do that. And I think that's what I love about the show and what people also like about the show. It's interesting when you say that you watch numerous episodes, I think maybe the energy in each of them is different.

Evan Shapiro: [00:38:00] That's true.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Some is friendlier than others. And I would say, over the course of 10 years, I've grown up. When I started the show I was 20, now I'm 31. So I've grown up with the show and I've become more confident and the character that I play, the persona has shifted too. And I like being able to be malleable to each person.

I do that a lot on the red carpet too.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah, you're great on the red carpet.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: When you have 90 seconds with someone, you have to read their energy and be able to get something incredible. And that's what I love: the challenge.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. Interview, interviewing is hard and you do a tremendous job of it.

Amelia Dimoldenberg: Right back at you guys.

Evan Shapiro: Thank you very much. I was fishing. So last question for the group. What

Marion Ranchet: In one sentence. Answer in one sentence. Otherwise we're gonna be yelled at.

Evan Shapiro: 'Cause you have to kick us out of your apartment.

Jasmine Dawson: Yeah, I do.

Evan Shapiro: What is the greatest mythology that you'd like to debunk about creator dom? What is the greatest myth that most people have about creator and creator platforms and creator content?

Start with, Amelia do you want to start?

Amelia Dimoldenberg: That creators don't work [00:39:00] hard. I don't know, I don't wanna say work hard, but like some, they're not meticulous with what they do and that they're not relentless with their work ethic. I think that's maybe a misconception.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: I think maybe about it just being seen as lesser than TV or film or I think is its own thing, which is just as, I was trying to think of a different word, but all I've got is good.

Evan Shapiro: It's up, it's up to the viewer.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah, yeah.

Jasmine Dawson: I think that they're for hire. I think actually the best opportunities and the best content and the best storytelling is when it's a partnership and you are working on it together and you're creating that story together rather than considering it an influencer.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. That's great. And that's what your Talent Works is all about, right?

Jasmine Dawson: Absolutely.

Evan Shapiro: Cool. Did you have a good time?

Audience: Woo.

Evan Shapiro: It's good to be in Cannes with you.

Marion Ranchet: Yeah. I loved it.

Evan Shapiro: Good to see you here in France. Thank you so much for coming and joining us today. See you around the croisette.

Kiell Smith-Bynoe: Yeah.

Evan Shapiro: Thanks for watching the Media Odyssey Podcast. That is Marion Ranchet and your [00:40:00] newsletter is?

Marion Ranchet: Streaming Made Easy on Substack.

Evan Shapiro: And you wanna?

Marion Ranchet: And you are Evan Shapiro, right?

Evan Shapiro: And my Substack is Media War and Peace on Substack. Thank you very much for attending.

Marion Ranchet: Coffee Time.

Evan Shapiro: Cheers. Au revoir.