The Media Odyssey

Jo Redfern: [00:00:00] Attention spans are just fine. It's interest spans that have contracted because if a kid on YouTube is interested in something, oh, their attention spans are just fine.

Evan Shapiro: Right.

Welcome to The Media Odyssey podcast. We have a special guest this week, special co-host Marion decided to abandon me and go on vacation as the French are want to do. And so we have a great friend of the pod. Also I would consider you a friend of me personally. And Marion.

Jo Redfern: Ah, thank you. Yes.

Evan Shapiro: Jo Redfern, an expert in any number of different parts of the television, streaming, entertainment, media economy in particular. Today we're gonna talk about her expertise in kids. You host a podcast about kids content. Yeah?

Jo Redfern: I do. Yes. The Kids Media Club podcast. Yeah. We had we had a chap called Evan Shapiro on not so long ago.

He was quite fun. You should look him up.

Evan Shapiro: Thank you. I hear he's great. Nice hair, I hear. Yeah.

Jo Redfern: Yeah. Gravity defying.

Evan Shapiro: [00:01:00] So on that conversation, in that conversation, we talked about the resistance of public service media to lean into YouTube as distribution, but we talked about it in particular around kids content, but let's back up.

Who are you and what do you do? What? What generally, how do you describe to your mom, your mum, how do you describe to your mom what the heck it is that you do?

Jo Redfern: I think you've just described me as a jack of all trades and master of none, but actually I think that can be a superpower, being a generalist.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah.

Jo Redfern: But I spent the greater part of my career in and around kids media. Was involved with a team that launched Peppa Pig 20 years ago.

Evan Shapiro: Oh, crap.

Jo Redfern: Believe it or not. And then spent a good chunk of time at BBC Children's in the uk looking after the CBBs and CBBC brands and again, seeing the exodus of kids away from public service and linear broadcast, which we'll get into.

And then decided, I was talking a lot about how these new platforms, social-first platforms were coming through, and so joined a startup to exec produce [00:02:00] content and games that would live social-first. Very much in that Moon Bug model, if anyone knows Cocomelon.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah, totally.

Jo Redfern: And really that was, that solidified my conviction that was where the future lie.

And I've never really gone back. And what's fascinating is seeing how quickly those media behaviors of kids are evolving, even in the five years since I left the BBC and the more traditional side of things. Seeing how they're evolving and increasingly leveraging that knowledge in sport as you've spoken about on your podcast with Marion.

You, the way that young people consume sports is so very different to previous generations. So that transformation is coming to sports too. It's a little bit behind where kids media and entertainment has been. So having a lot of fun trying to educate leagues and federations and sports rights owners in the behaviors of those slippery demographics that are the under twenties.

Evan Shapiro: And so you, so across a number of years, I won't say decades, you've been working on young people's [00:03:00] content across many different platforms and channels and brands and IP.

Jo Redfern: Yes.

Evan Shapiro: And so you've tracked the evolution of the media consumption. First of millennials, then of Gen Z, now of Gen Alpha.

Not just in kids programming, but in general programming as well. Sports.

Jo Redfern: Absolutely.

Evan Shapiro: And there's this perception amongst, especially people in the UK television business, but people across all media as well, especially the older, you get, Boomers. That at some point they'll just wake up and have different tastes and how they consume media and they'll return.

And so I'm curious, you've been tracking these behaviors of first the millennials, now Gen Zs. Now Gen A's what, how has it tracked, how has kids consumption moved as millennials became adults? As Gen Zs become adults and now as Generation A enters the marketplace?

Jo Redfern: As you have so eloquently said when we've been chatting before, but also are on in your own communications and newsletter and podcasts, there are new habits forming that [00:04:00] aren't gonna change as soon as they hit 18 or they get their first apartment.

So this social-first fandom, they go to YouTube and TikTok, that's their primary place to consume video content, and it isn't just for entertainment either. It's their default search engine. They're going there when they're at school to learn how to tie shoelaces. We Google things 'cause we're text-based searches.

They're video-based searches.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. But I was talking to someone in at, very high up at YouTube sales recently. And they talked about the way they've evolved from a desktop product to a television product. So the difference is yes, it used to be you just searched stuff on your phone, on YouTube, on at school, and then you went home and continued to search on your phone.

Now when they get home, they're turning on the television of course. And the first channel they're going to is YouTube as well. Yeah,

Jo Redfern: Of course. Yeah. Through Connected TVs. The YouTube app in is invariably there as soon as you turn on your TV and my focus group of two, which is teenage boys, that's the first thing they click.

Evan Shapiro: Right.

Jo Redfern: So they're watching YouTube on a Connected TV. So yes.

Evan Shapiro: But here's a, [00:05:00] so let's put aside YouTube because I think people are tired of hearing me talk about YouTube. I think what's crucial about that is yes, this cacophony, this sea of channels that is YouTube, 9 million channels that matter. I was talking to someone at Tube Filter. There are 9 million channels that matter on YouTube. Okay.

Beyond that though, the number two default and number three default for people under the age of 15, seems to me at least based on data in the UK and in the US in order: Netflix and Disney plus. Is that true from your standpoint?

Jo Redfern: I wouldn't know. I'd have to look at the stats, probably yours, but we're looking at where they consume content. And it's this whole mishmash, isn't it? Young people consume content fluidly across all of these platforms. And what they really hate is barriers that friction.

But actually a lot of business models are predicated on friction and keeping you in an ecosystem. Watch time being a key metric. So I think the point there to say is [00:06:00] that all of these platforms are important in their lives. Yes. It might be YouTube as the first point of call, but there's different consumption patterns.

They ebb and flow. Sometimes they want to sit down and they want a lean back experience, but then they want more active, lean in experiences. We're talking primarily about video, but Roblox, look at the amount of time that they're spending on Roblox.

Evan Shapiro: Right, right, right.

Jo Redfern: Very often they're consuming it, their favorite YouTube creator, whilst they're on Roblox dual screening.

Evan Shapiro: Or Minecraft is another one as well.

Jo Redfern: On Minecraft for sure.

Evan Shapiro: Look at the, and by the way, to speak to that and the kind of continuum, the flywheel, the IP flywheel that you were just discussing. Look at Minecraft.

Look at the Minecraft Movie. That's gonna do a bit, more than a billion dollars in revenue. And, it's, I think in the United States it's somewhere north of 50% of all kids between the ages of six and 12 play Minecraft. So it's a massive piece of IP and communication platform.

It's also this intellectual property machine

Jo Redfern: Completely.

Evan Shapiro: In a Disney model to a certain extent.

Jo Redfern: Yeah. And [00:07:00] same with Roblox. On Roblox, very often called the YouTube of gaming, five and a half million active experiences. That is social gaming. They're going there, they're hanging out with friends, they're not necessarily playing anything or killing a boss. Sometimes they're just hanging about in the Adidas store. This, there's new IP growing there too.

Evan Shapiro: It's Adidas. It's Adidas

Jo Redfern: Ad- Okay. Sorry, Adidas.

Evan Shapiro: No, I'm kidding. No, you're right. It's Adidas, but I say it wrong. I'm an American.

I'm trying to inflict my, sorry.

Jo Redfern: So yeah. But this is, again, a new breeding ground for new IP. We've got Minecraft that is huge IP at the moment. There will be IP that grows out of UGC platforms like Roblox too.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. So my question to you though is, okay, I understand what the business model is for Roblox and Netflix and YouTube, and I'll get back to it. Let's put a pin in that, as they say.

But what's the business model for an IP publisher? So think about, and I can give you a case study where I begin to, it [00:08:00] begins to gel for me, which is Bluey. Which just passed 10 million subscribers on YouTube. It was originated, I think in Australia, correct?

Jo Redfern: Yeah. By Ludo Studio. Yeah.

Evan Shapiro: And then BBC studios took it over as a distribution platform or a distribution company. The commercial arm, crucially the commercial arm of BBC. And now it coexists as a massive hit on YouTube here in the States. I'm just gonna take the States. On YouTube and I think in the UK, as well on Disney Plus simultaneously.

So how does, explain that to me. How does, how is Disney Plus okay with that? And is this the new normal? Do you, does the IP holder really have to be the one in control of the business model versus the platform?

Jo Redfern: I think it does now. I think that's where the switch has happened, because back to that fluid consumption across platforms.

We speak about the attention economy. It used to be [00:09:00] that value was held in scarcity. It was locked away on a platform, but now scarcity equals anonymity. And in an attention economy, that's bad. You wanna be everywhere where kids are hanging out. So that means that there's a bit, there's been a power shift towards those IP owners, those publishers, and also creators and we'll come onto creators that necessitate actually, you want to have a strategy that covers not just linear TV or streamers.

But you've gotta have your YouTube strategy, you've, it's not just a question of putting clips on YouTube, and that's okay because you've got a proportion of the audience for whom YouTube is their primary platform. So you've got Bluey that has a proprietary content strategy.

Now for YouTube. They commission and create YouTube specific content.

Evan Shapiro: Yes.

Jo Redfern: Recently, Nickelodeon hopped on that bandwagon. They've got Kid Cowboy, their first YouTube original.

Evan Shapiro: Original. And that's a full, that's a premium full length television show that is launching on YouTube.

Jo Redfern: For sure.

Evan Shapiro: Interesting. [00:10:00] I believe Nickelodeon's the number one publisher in the entertainment space on YouTube and BBC is number two. BBC studios in particular is number two.

But let's take the Cocomelon example, or I mean. Cocomelon was started by a smaller studio as a YouTube original, correct?

Jo Redfern: Yeah. So it was Cocomelon and Gecko's Garage and a lot of those that now sit in the Moon Bug stable, were kind of mom and pop shop channels.

But, brought under the KOMO umbrella and scaled, scaled like crazy.

Evan Shapiro: Massively. And now it's a massive hit on paid streaming and on free streaming. It's another good example. BBC Studio, Moon Bug is an example, but BBC studios which generates I believe more than $2 billion in revenue per year, has a massive infrastructure for social video. To distribute on social video.

Jo Redfern: Yes.

Evan Shapiro: They have two channels near the top of the rankings worldwide. Bluey and BBC Earth.

Jo Redfern: Yes.

Evan Shapiro: And so this is, there's a whole infrastructure. Is this [00:11:00] the new normal? Does a producer in kids entertainment be, given what you just described husk and all approach to IP: merchandising, live, social, premium sales, but then you're responsible for the audience on the premium platforms while it's there as well?

Is that business model the new normal for producers who are in this kid space and is there an awakening that needs to happen amongst, especially in your zone in the UK, amongst those producers for this new normal as far as infrastructure goes?

Jo Redfern: Yeah, absolutely. Because you being dependent on one channel is risky, right? Linear viewing is in decline. You, if you are YouTube only, they tweet the algorithm and your views drop off a cliff. So you need to hedge to be across all of those platforms, not just because we're in an attention economy and you need to be everywhere, but actually this is gonna give your IP longevity.

But commissioning budgets are tighter than ever. So you've gotta think about how you monetize [00:12:00] elsewhere. We heard from Ampere Analysis at MIP Junior in London -- where you and Marion were also there -- that those commissioning budgets are shrinking. They're tighter than ever.

Evan Shapiro: So that's the thing is, so yeah. If linear, I think everybody's kissed linear goodbye, although there is a decent amount of viewership still there, even in the kid space.

On the other hand, the streamers, Netflix, Disney Plus who are sweeping up a tremendous amount of the viewing from broadcast. YouTube is taking up a lot of it, but Disney Plus and Netflix is taking up a tremendous amount.

They're number, usually number two and three in the kids space worldwide. They're commissioning less and they're paying less per commission. And you're tying your whole boat on selling series to them and you're not building your own audience.

Jo Redfern: You're gonna be waiting a long time. You're in the line to pitch to the commissioners and you're one of a long line. And even if you get some money out of them, it's a smaller proportion than ever, which then leaves you going out and trying to pull together the jigsaw [00:13:00] of funding from whomever you can get it from.

But even, you look at the likes of Netflix, who we've said are still part of that ecosystem for kids, but they're investing less in original kids content. But now they're looking towards YouTube. So they're looking to Ms Rachel.

They, what they're doing is they're looking to creators on YouTube who've already made their mistakes there. They've iterated their content, they've done the hard yards, pivoted their content if necessary, and then grown their audience. They're pushing that risk, that original creation risk onto them. So I mean, that we've seen Ms Rachel, Cocomelon lives very happily on Netflix. So that's what they're doing now.

Almost as if they don't, I mean they're de-risking content, but it's almost as if they don't trust their own ability to come up with original ideas anymore. Creators are the ones that do that.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah, I think it's a yes and to that question. On one hand they, they are, they haven't had a high hit rate worldwide on every [00:14:00] single title.

They have massive hits, so it's hard to argue against that. But then you look at that recent Chris Pratt vehicle, which cost a billion dollars and was a big disappointment. And I think this is a bit of a hedge. This is a bit of a diversification. Plus they see YouTube kicking their ass in the UK in the US month after month after month after month.

Which is why Ted Sarandos got serious about putting video podcasts on the platform this week. And then. But crucially, to your point Side Men, they buy a big series from Jake Paul. We can, obviously, and these are all kids programming too. Jake Paul is massive following with men the age 24.

Jo Redfern: Oh Side Men, much following amongst kids.

Evan Shapiro: Side Men. Huge. That is the new sports for people under the age of 25. Ms. Rachel is kids programming and one of the biggest kid stars on the face of the earth. So yeah, I think they are predicting where this is all heading.

So these are three generations. Millennials somewhat, but in particular Gen Z and Gen A. These are two generations raised on social media.

Jo Redfern: Completely

Evan Shapiro: Google and now [00:15:00] TikTok as their search engines, right?

Jo Redfern: Yep. Social first, digitally native. That's, yeah, that's what we're dealing with now. That's the operating context.

Evan Shapiro: And let's use your kids as a case study.

They are used to a incredibly fragmented, splintered dashboard when they log on YouTube.

Jo Redfern: No, I agree on mine too. And I think back to your point about the Netflixes and the Disney pluses. When we've got this fragmentation, we've got multiple markets in global markets at the moment, but each with their cultural nuance, their regulatory frameworks, population factors.

Europe is old. I heard you say that in Copenhagen. But that, so that makes it really hard when mass scale is your business model, particularly when kids, what's interesting is, kids taste factors are changing, mainly shaped like what we've said is the access to tech. But also they're looking further afield with regards to their storytelling.

So we spoke about Bluey, [00:16:00] the Amazing Digital Circus, which was a YouTube first property that Netflix also took, again, came out of Australia. You've got Mighty Little Beam, which came out of India, which blew up on YouTube and ended up on Netflix and Netflix. Even this week, we talk, they went on the record talking about investing more in South Korean content.

So we've got this fragmentation, the rise of anime, about half of Gen Z and Gen A in the US watch Anime weekly. It's huge. It's huge on Roblox too.

Evan Shapiro: Crunchyoll has a massive audience. Not by Netflix standards, but by Brit Box standards and other small streamers. Yeah.

Jo Redfern: Yeah. Those that can then tap into those niches, those fragments, then have got the power. And that's where the algorithms come in. What's interesting is what is the same is that kids are largely kids and developmentally they don't change that much over time.

So what I mean there is the stage at which it's about skill acquisition or when they develop a sense of self or they start to insert, assert their independence. They happen [00:17:00] consistently.

But what happens now where we've got access to almost infinite media is creators can better thin slice and create for those smaller niches. So whereas the big broadcasters, the BBCs, the Netflix, they tend to create for preschool. Six to nines, nine to twelves. You've got creators now that can create for smaller age groups, developmental stage, and interest.

So that gives them the ability to target much more in a much more nuanced, sophisticated way than the what rather un unwieldy way that those big Netflix and Disney global platforms do.

Evan Shapiro: And that's the new competitive state. Importantly, it's not broadcast or streaming or social video or app based. It's all the creator economy.

BBC is a creator. They behave as a creator when they act around Bluey, they're actually one of the best creators on the face of the earth. And the statistics argue that.

So fragmentation is [00:18:00] this new normal, and you have to be able to wade through it. And the best way to wade through it is to be the best creator in the world. On any platform that you're on.

So two parts, two part question. On the platform side, it seems as if you're saying you need a creator strategy. What is your creator strategy? How do you bring not just their audiences, 'cause that's not always successful, but crucially their voices into your platform?

The way it seems like Netflix is leaning very heavily into it. We'll see how it's doing. We don't know right now, right? With Ms. Rachel. The Sidemen thing hasn't launched yet, I don't believe. And so we'll see how that goes. But it does seem like you're saying that, is that an accurate read?

Jo Redfern: I think creators need to be brought on board, not just as partners, but also distribution channels. Again, they bring their audience, but they can also be a distribution channel for you. But it's also thinking like creators. 'cause as you've said, established studios like BBC [00:19:00] studios, they are creators now, but they have to learn these new rules of engagement.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah. And that, sorry to interrupt, but that is the division. So when there are two different parts to this question, which is platform, forget that there are studio for a second. Are the acquisition, it seems as if kids is ha has to be a part of your strategy no matter who you are because that is one of the great anti-churn mechanisms in the premium streaming business.

And Netflix learned that early on, which is why they've always been so heavily into kids. Amazon knows this. They have a big kid strategy. Disney Plus is obvious. Disco Brothers, HBO Max really fucked up their kids strategy on a thousand. And it's one of the reasons why I really don't think that platform will survive.

But as platforms go, it seems to say, whether you're in partnership with them or from a programming standpoint or a marketing standpoint, you have to have a major creator strategy if you want to attract and keep people under the age of 20.

Jo Redfern: Because they,[00:20:00] those creators are their superheroes. They've had these parasocial relationships through these things for the last 10 years. 12 inches with Mr. Beast or Ms Rachel. So those creators now are the movie stars from when we were young.

Evan Shapiro: They are Hollywood.

Jo Redfern: They are Hollywood. It's the reason Jake Paul was given permission to fight Mike Tyson.

Evan Shapiro: And $40 million.

Jo Redfern: Yes.

Evan Shapiro: And $40 million.

Jo Redfern: So they have power and this is, it took Mr. Beast 13 years to be an overnight success. That dude ground it out, he figured out where he was losing audiences in each video. If he spotted a pattern, he didn't do it. He learned that.

Evan Shapiro: Let's look at, and crucially, now let's pivot. I agree. I think having a creative strategy for programming on platform, but to your major point, marketing in particular.

Netflix hired the owl from Duo Lingo, who's an influencer on TikTok, to promote the new season of Squid Games.

On the [00:21:00] flip side, as a studio, as a producer, as a production company, it sounds as if you're also saying part of your development process has to be building IP and audience specific to social video.

Jo Redfern: Completely. That's, it used to be that you created your IP, your show, it was in the can and ready for broadcast, and then you thought about your distribution strategy, your first window, second window. Now really you need to think about your distribution strategy across all of those platforms whilst you are creating the IP and the show.

You've gotta think about how you articulate the essence of your characters and your world and your storyline in 15 seconds on TikTok, you've gotta think about what the deep dive content is, the shoulder content on YouTube, because we know that young people will swim around in content on YouTube.

Quick, soapbox moment. Attention spans are just fine. It's interest spans that have contracted because if a kid on YouTube is interested in something, oh, their attention spans are just fine.

Evan Shapiro: Exactly. [00:22:00] That fallacy of the shortening attention span, but let me double click on that. You're talking about again, distribution strategy. I'm also thinking about origination strategy.

So let's use the Cocomelon one, but let's look at somebody who is not necessarily kids programming, but young person programming. The Chicken Shop date. This is an original series that BBC studios helped create on YouTube. We can look at other YouTube originals, Nickelodeon as well.

Moon Bug, its entire business is built on creating IP first on social video and then selling it to someone else at a much higher price because it's bringing an audience along with it. Do you think that's the model that if it's not the exclusive model, it certainly has to be a component of your company's strategy?

Jo Redfern: It does. And that is because you've got the ability to test your content on YouTube, and this is what creators have done. They've honed their craft, not least because they're on the platform [00:23:00] all day long. They are much closer to the audience than the Netflix's, the BBC's, and the Disney's of this world.

Evan Shapiro: Much. They're they closer.

Jo Redfern: They're in amongst them. These are their kin. So they instinctively know how to create content that resonates, whereas. There's a much greater distance between those that are sat in the corporate boardrooms at Disney and Netflix. But also, again, we come back to this iteration. Years and years ago when I was exec producing content. You made it and it was perfect. First time, that was it. Your show was done.

But now this is they're leaning in. It's messy. They tweak it, they push and pull it around, but then when they hit on it, that's when it blows up. That's a completely different way of creating content as a studio, as a publisher to the previous 20, 30 years.

So again, it's a change in how you create and that, and go back to Netflix, they're letting those creators and those publishers do all that, the hard yards. And then [00:24:00] when it's nailed, it's ready, it's cooked. Okay.

Evan Shapiro: It's baked, yeah.

Jo Redfern: We'll have it.

Evan Shapiro: Pick it up and serve it as fresh bake. Look how we baked for you audience as if we did.

Jo Redfern: Absolutely.

Evan Shapiro: And we'll see if that strategy works. It's a, I think it's a very savvy strategy to the point, and I predicted this numerous times now I may be manifesting it. I think Netflix is gonna announce a free creator-led sphere, including podcast videos and things like Ms. Rachel and Sidemen.

Jo Redfern: I completely agree

Evan Shapiro: On boot of their ad product. I think they're gonna announce it within the year. Maybe as soon as this upfront, but I feel like that they keep floating balloons towards that end.

Jo Redfern: Yes. Yeah, completely. And you can see it, it's a sensible strategy for them.

Evan Shapiro: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

Jo Redfern: It does make a lot of sense. Yeah. I can see that coming too. I can, we're seeing Mr. Beast getting picked up by Amazon. We're,

Evan Shapiro: Pop the Balloon now on Netflix as well, though that's pretty controversial. So let me ask you a question. You come from the most traditional of media.

You must have started when you were you were in your teens. And [00:25:00] so you come from the most traditional media. You've worked it as a buyer, which is a hard set of perks to leave, right? Word? And and now you're out on your own, but you seem almost comfortable with the chaos.

Jo Redfern: I love it.

Evan Shapiro: How did you transform from someone inside very traditional media to someone who is as comfortable navigating the chaos as a sole proprietor, I might add, as you are, and you do?

Jo Redfern: I've come to the conclusion, the older that I've gotten, that I'm just a change junkie but that's great because I can't think of a time when media and kids media in particular has been changing quite so fast.

And I, yeah. I love the chaos of it. I often say that working in the kids media business puts you in the future business. 'cause they're already way ahead of us. Let's face it, we're just running to try and keep up and figure out a business model to mirror their behaviors. [00:26:00] So that's really what I love because kids will break stuff they mess about with stuff. They don't use platforms and applications in the way they were intended to. And that's great because that's how we learn how to serve them better. And we, my future incumbent, yours too, is gonna be reliant on them pretty soon.

Evan Shapiro: No, we need to start getting them to have babies too, so we have a society to sustain.

Jo Redfern: Oh goodness.

Evan Shapiro: That's a whole other conversation.

Jo Redfern: Handmaid's tale on me now. Yeah. But sorry

Evan Shapiro: Yeah, sorry to go there.

Jo Redfern: So I just love what kids do with media, how they consume it now, how they're creating it themselves. They've got studios in their pockets and the means to create.

Evan Shapiro: On Roblox, on YouTube, all these other, yeah.

Jo Redfern: Yeah. Roblox is a low code platform. You don't need a computer science degree to spin up an experience. It might, my 15-year-old did it. It was only ever intended to be played in with him and six friends. That doesn't matter. He was able to create a Mandalorian hide and seek game.

Evan Shapiro: Wow.

Jo Redfern: It's, [00:27:00] this is what's so fascinating and so heartening at a time when actually young people can be, they're demonized in a lot of many ways.

You see what they're doing with media and how they're engaging with it, and I think that's the opportunity.

Evan Shapiro: I agree. This has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for stepping in while Marion abandoned me to go on a high sees adventure. It's been great talking to you.

It's always great to see you, you add such great value to our ecosystem and to our community. I know everybody that follows me on LinkedIn thinks that about you as well. I appreciate that. Thanks everybody for checking out this episode of the Media Odyssey Podcast.

Jo, what's your podcast again?

Jo Redfern: The Kids Media Club podcast.

Evan Shapiro: Great. You can get that anywhere you get podcast. We'll see you soon. I believe Marion and I are getting back together, but she's got a co-host while I'm on vacation and we each have solo episodes coming up, so check those out. Thanks everybody.